Religiulous

[Erik]

I don't know if I spelled the title correctly but, I really enjoyed this film. It does kind of speak to the converted though on the topic of just how foolish religion is. I found it funny that there are some very high up religious people that are surprisingly bright and aren't nearly as fanatical as the stupid. Still, Maher's ultimate argument I do agree with 100%. We cannot move forward as humanity unless we eliminate religion.

[About2Crash]

I have been meaning to see this. I heard that Maher doesn't debate so much as be mean (which is funny, but not ultimately effective)

As far as humanity without religion? It would probably be exactly like South Park. People would segregate themselves into new groups based on different beliefs, like sea otters who think that tables are a waste of wood.

[Erik]

He is kind of mean but, you can't really debate religion. It's more of a shouting match. You either believe or you don't and while every point can be refuted the religious can always and will always fall back on faith. That is the only thing that is keeping religion together, believing something for the sake of believing. That is pure lunacy in my book.

[Dane]

Originally Posted by Erik

We cannot move forward as humanity unless we eliminate religion.

Where are we planning on moving to and why? Where will humanities evolution take us? Is it just going to be what we have now but a little better? Lovely industrial, productive paradise?

As if the church and religion has any power in the secular world.. all that is left that has power is the old morality. People are so used to the West's idea of 'good and evil' that it just seems common sense and almost crazy to question it.

As far as I'm concerned it was the loss of our tradition that has stopped humanity from being what it was (obviously). I don't see the current ideas of progression leading anyway positive at all.

"America ... has created a 'civilization' that represents an exact contradiction of the ancient European tradition. It has introduced the religion of praxis and productivity; it has put the quest for profit, great industrial production, and mechanical, visible, and quantitative achievements over any other interest. It has generated a soulless greatness of a purely technological and collective nature, lacking any background of transcendence, inner light, and true spirituality. America has built a society where man becomes a mere instrument of production and material productivity within a conformist social conglomerate."
-Julius Evola

That more or less sums it up for me. I despise it more and more every day and try my hardest to stay out of it, which is very hard.
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I also wander where humanity would be without religion, myth etc. as in, if none of it ever happened. Was it helpful but discardable or ?

[Erik]

Moving forward has to do with technology and study for me. People are scared of stem cells because of it's religious implications to some. There is also the idea that we will never be an efficient government with religion. It still says on our money here, "In God we trust". All of our founding fathers were actually against mixing religion with state entirely. They were also against the idea of a 2 party system but, many of these have fallen onto deaf ears. Religion justifies what others would consider hanus or insane and all because is it done in the name of divinity.

With regards to the quote, I agree. I too detest the industrialization of our society. This isn't to say that I don't find technology beneficial. A delicate balance is really the only way I see it working. We are moving away from understanding and working with our environment. A utopian world will never exist for the sheer fact that we have different ideas and beliefs. Religion is just one of the many things that divide us. Ideally, for myself, I want to spend some time walking the world and finding a place that can better further my goals in life. I know, long term, it is not San Diego and I don't think it's in the USA but, for now it is.

[herrieman]

I am a-religious. Not an atheist, no believer, but something in between. I detest christianity, but I do know some people do need a 'set of guidelines' or religion, or whatever you call it. Usually banishing religion or 'dangerous substances' gives a contra reaction. Remember the 1930-ies. Remember the Inquisition. Remember the nazis wiping out Polish upper class in 1940, only to make sure the rest of the people would 'follow' the new regime.

Fear is a bad counsellor, but depending on religion only can lead to tunnelvision. Only an opinion, of course. Free your mind, eat a wokkel.

[Dane]

Originally Posted by Erik

With regards to the quote, I agree. I too detest the industrialization of our society. This isn't to say that I don't find technology beneficial. A delicate balance is really the only way I see it working. We are moving away from understanding and working with our environment. A utopian world will never exist for the sheer fact that we have different ideas and beliefs. Religion is just one of the many things that divide us. Ideally, for myself, I want to spend some time walking the world and finding a place that can better further my goals in life. I know, long term, it is not San Diego and I don't think it's in the USA but, for now it is.

We may think along similiar lines when it comes to this I guess. Of course, I am really enjoying this conversation with a friend who lives on the other side of the world. This wouldn't have been possible. Balance is the key, I'm just skeptical of how much we can keep. I'm really comfortable as a hermit, hehe. I just like my privacy and don't like nosy people trying to get involved, sharing their opinions on it etc. I want the time to figure it out too. I don't want to be forced into getting a car, then being forced into getting a job to pay for petrol, then working and working to pay for the million other things I apparently need, then dieing. I would rather grow my own food and work on my property while studying and keeping up alot of my religious stuff. Hopefully with a partner, heh. That's my ideal life anyway.

I was thinking at the early hours of this morn I don't think I have ever met an elderly person who has said they were satisfied with what they did with their time. They always say "where did the time go?" This says a lot to me. They took part in the system and that is the sad result. Passions and artistic sparks are suffocated for capitalist ideals. I don't want to die like that.

You could say nature is religion for me, more or less. If you observe it closely enough (I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else though). I mean, I don't like the current "establishment/system" because it is in conflict with nature and has turned man into something un-natural. Nature is violent, chaotic and potentially very destructive. I think humanity's idea of building "civilisation" ontop of that foundation is insane. It will always come roaring back and smash whatever we've decided needs to be done, or the way things should be. Instead of ignoring it, we should embrace it and acknowledge it as a part of reality. Maybe this will look like a really depressing or horrible outlook to a lot of people but oh well, nothing could be more positive or beautiful to me. I don't want to say any more about this though, people will either get what I am saying or they wont. I think repressing these aspects of life and nature causes a lot of problems.

I don't really know, this is just a really thrown together summary of my rare sentimental thoughts on stuff like this I have been having for the last few months.

I guess, I don't really have a proper understanding of the situation in America, Australia must be quite a bite more secular. Sorry if I seemed rude or anything, it wasn't my intention at all.

[Amok]

Originally Posted by Erik

You either believe or you don't and while every point can be refuted the religious can always and will always fall back on faith.

People that can't argue, don't like to argue and maybe stay away from the shouting matches about religion altogether say that, like the douche who wrote The Purpose Driven Life, a book I hated yet a friend of mine loved it and it helped him out with whatever he needed helping out with. So, there ya go. If someone wants to get rid of Christianity, round up everyone and stick in a fire or something, I'll be the first to go. Won't even put up a fight. I'd be glad. But maybe I'm just depressed cause I hate Autumn that much. I just hate hearing people bitch about it when they need to focus on individuals and not on the whole. I'm very different from said friend of mine but we share the same foundation, if that makes sense.

On the movie: I'll see it, but won't pay to see it--which goes for 99% of what's out there.

[Erik]

Originally Posted by Dane

We may think along similiar lines when it comes to this I guess. Of course, I am really enjoying this conversation with a friend who lives on the other side of the world. This wouldn't have been possible. Balance is the key, I'm just skeptical of how much we can keep. I'm really comfortable as a hermit, hehe. I just like my privacy and don't like nosy people trying to get involved, sharing their opinions on it etc. I want the time to figure it out too. I don't want to be forced into getting a car, then being forced into getting a job to pay for petrol, then working and working to pay for the million other things I apparently need, then dieing. I would rather grow my own food and work on my property while studying and keeping up alot of my religious stuff. Hopefully with a partner, heh. That's my ideal life anyway.

I too despise that I require a car to get around, a job that perpetuates ideals I don't care for and then I have a school system that fights my ideas. I did however choose to go back to school knowing it would be this way to a degree. Grad school is allowing me freedom I never had as an undergraduate. I have the freedom to explore my research how I wish and that is how we learn most. With regards to the "perfect life" that you speak of, I want what you want to a degree though I feel at odds with much of humanity and find that my passion becomes more and more internal as time goes on and I am exhibiting less and less emotion as my monotonistic approach comes into daily conversation. People I have known for a long time say they know how passionate I am and can still hear it but, they can tell I am hiding it to a degree. Sad that those of us that see the world the way we do must hide in the shadows lest we be discovered by those that would seek to undo our thoughts, loves and dreams.

I was thinking at the early hours of this morn I don't think I have ever met an elderly person who has said they were satisfied with what they did with their time. They always say "where did the time go?" This says a lot to me. They took part in the system and that is the sad result.

I actually like the quote that said, "If you can accomplish all your goals in your lifetime then your goals aren't big enough." and "Satisfaction is never an option. When you become satisfied you become obsolete." I am on a personal quest for myself to become the man that could be considered the strongest man alive and also the one that could win the nobel peace prize. I don't give two shits about the awards but, I want to understand my world and myself and, once more, solve some lingering mysteries that I have found for myself. I might end up with a PHD one day but it's just a piece of paper.

Passions and artistic sparks are suffocated for capitalist ideals. I don't want to die like that.

Its more the liberal democracy that suffocates these things as I see it being that we must be careful not to offend others. I myself got scolded by several teachers for having a group of kids play "Steal the Bacon". According to them it teaches the kids that stealing is fun and it is culturally insensitive to vegans and Jewish children. That is bullshit.

I'd love to keep chattin' about this Dane my man. Philosophical talk with individuals that are intelligent always gives me a feeling that life and the world might turn out okay...same feeling I get listening to Lost Horizon.
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Originally Posted by Amok!

I just hate hearing people bitch about it when they need to focus on individuals and not on the whole. I'm very different from said friend of mine but we share the same foundation, if that makes sense.

Well the problem is the majority over the minority. You are a minority in a majority of followers. Religious zealots are like a cockroach. You can cut off its head and it will still be alive if only for a while until more cockroaches come up to take its place. That's why you need to wipe it all out. Not cockroaches mind you. I highly respect the adaptive capabilities of the periplaneta family.

[Amok]

Originally Posted by Dane

I would rather grow my own food and work on my property while studying and keeping up alot of my religious stuff. Hopefully with a partner, heh. That's my ideal life anyway.

I like this idea as well. I'd like to just sit at home and read but that's excess--unless I got paid for it. Problem for me is retaining information--I can't. I have to go over something a hundred times before I finally get it, but after I get it, it's cemented and never leaves. I get bored very fast unless I'm staring at an ocean on a sunny day and can't keep attention on something for more than a minute, then, change. It's annoying.
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Originally Posted by Erik

Religious zealots are like a cockroach. You can cut off its head and it will still be alive if only for a while until more cockroaches come up to take its place.

It works for both parties. Ya got the religious zealots and the anti religious zealots. Both are equally terrible and not very constructive.

[Dane]

Originally Posted by Erik

I actually like the quote that said, "If you can accomplish all your goals in your lifetime then your goals aren't big enough." and "Satisfaction is never an option. When you become satisfied you become obsolete." I am on a personal quest for myself to become the man that could be considered the strongest man alive and also the one that could win the nobel peace prize. I don't give two shits about the awards but, I want to understand my world and myself and, once more, solve some lingering mysteries that I have found for myself. I might end up with a PHD one day but it's just a piece of paper.

Ahh, maybe you misunderstood. When they say "where did all the time go?" it is usually in a dissapointed and defeated way. As if, I had all this time and I didn't really do anything worth remembering outside of my family and job and maybe a couple of nice vacations. I had a yaucht for a while too. etc. It makes me very depressed but I'm not sure if anyone else will "get" what I mean. Of course, I think there should always be something to aspire to. I can't imagine what a "will-less" life would be like. Please don't think I support liberal democracy! Even if I might come across as a bit more "bleeding heart" than usual.

I would like to keep talking too, but I gotta go cook luuunch. It is a good thing though, I will get carried away and took for ages. It is the first day I am at home on my own in weeks so I can finally reply to emails and shit.

[Merrick]

I saw this movie last night with a few guy friends and i have to say i rather enjoyed it.

Now im religious, remember im a hindu, but i agree with what Bill Maher was saying for the most part. Do i think religion as a whole should just disappear? No. I just think that people need to stop throwing their beliefs at others. If you are going to be religious then thats fine but leave it at a personal level, dont try to convert everyone else. Also when talking about religion, i feel that people should express their opinions respectfully and when the other person shares their views, take their opinion openly and if you dont agree with it then leave it be. Nothing annoys me more then a person yelling my religion is the right one and yours is wrong! There is no proof on which religion is the correct one or if it is right at all. So people just need to accept each other. Its as simple as that.

[RippingCorpse87]

I very much want to see this movie...

Churches have a history of controlling people and preaching morals to everyone...

My neice was told that she would go to hell if she does not go to church, and if she didn't listen to her parents. The worst part is my neice is 6 years old, and she was told this by another 6 year old. But she does live in Colorado...


But I do believe that religion can be a positive thing. I am a Atheist leaning Agnostic, and it is pretty depressing to feel like death is the end. I want to believe in an afterlife, I want to believe that the good things I do in my life are judge by a higher power, but it's almost impossible for me to feel these things. I would perfer reincarnation over a heaven however.

All I know for sure is what has happened in my life, what I have seen. I must rely on others to tell me what was in the past, and it is my human instinct to believe them. I think that is why so many people are religious. I used to just blindly follow those who told me such things. It seemed like common knowledge of history when I was younger, and until I was about 15 I didn't question it. Now I ask myself almost everyday if there is a God, if there is a afterlife, and so far I have come to the conclusion "Most likely not".

[About2Crash]

I don't mind if people are religious. It's healthy, almost an "ignorance is bliss" sort of thing, but if believing in an invisible man in the sky makes you a better person and makes you happy, that's awesome. It's only when when important decisions are made based on religion that it must be stopped. Abortion, stem cells, gay marriage, etc. Are all issues that are mainly held down by religion.

I do say very blasphemous things quite often, but it isn't so much to bash their religion as it is to bash the decisions they make based on their beliefs.

That's why I like mormons. Yeah, they try and convert you every chance they get, but they are generally nice people simply because they already know that everybody thinks that they are ridiculous.

[Amok]

Originally Posted by About2Crash

I don't mind if people are religious. It's healthy, almost an "ignorance is bliss" sort of thing,

Weird, I've thought the same about the folks who aren't. Ya got your fakes in there, and then ya got your down to earth types.

Originally Posted by About2Crash

I do say very blasphemous things quite often, but it isn't so much to bash their religion as it is to bash the decisions they make based on their beliefs.

So wouldn't you bash the decisions themselves? What about bashing Hinduism? Buddhism? Peaceful types? Might as well hit everyone.

The loudest and most unnecessary noise I hear about religion is from over-the-top evangelicals who don't know when to quite, jihadists--self explanatory, and atheist types who also don't know when to quite, and like to think for others, or at least round everyone up together thinking it's the same, which is completely ignorant. Everyone else seems fine in the broader scheme.

[N00bs]

I have not seen this movie yet, but Jesus Camp was hilarious. Talk about fanatical.

[About2Crash]

Originally Posted by Amok!

Weird, I've thought the same about the folks who aren't. Ya got your fakes in there, and then ya got your down to earth types.



So wouldn't you bash the decisions themselves? What about bashing Hinduism? Buddhism? Peaceful types? Might as well hit everyone.

The loudest and most unnecessary noise I hear about religion is from over-the-top evangelicals who don't know when to quite, jihadists--self explanatory, and atheist types who also don't know when to quite, and like to think for others, or at least round everyone up together thinking it's the same, which is completely ignorant. Everyone else seems fine in the broader scheme.

Well, with the first statement, that's a lot of people about many things. For instance, people that think that the rest of the world has it just as good as America and other industrial counries. Many people use their own little bubble to live in, whether religion, work, or politics causes it.

As for bashing other religions, you actually think the same way I do. Recently in my improv troupe, I was told that Christian jokes were not allowed anymore, but that scientologist, Jehova's Witness, and other "non mainstream" religions were fair game. I immediately said that if you can't make fun of one, you can't make fun of the other. It's hypocritical. The reason to make fun of someone's religion when they make a stupid decision based off of it (For instance, the christians that do not support gay marriage when it should have been around a long time ago) is just the punk influence in me of, "The best way to make somebody see how stupid they are is to make fun of them." If I didn't have an "agenda" and I made a religion joke, it would be simply because I thought it was a funny joke.

I have no qualms about making fun of hindus, buddhists, or the peaceful types, but since they rarely come up in conversation in America and are much less relevant, it's harder to make a good joke. Plus, I never quite have a reason to. They haven't had any of the Catholic or Mormon child rape issues that are so easy to target.

Also, I do agree. I do not like people who shove their beliefs on one another. Being an atheist myself, (Quotes Akercocke: I Believe that when I die, I will rot.) it makes life almost meaningless. Not to say you shouldn't enjoy every day that you have, but I pretty much believe that in the grand scheme of things, humankind is just another one of the earth's stages and one day it will eventually be forgotten. So if I believe this, why would I want to take people's religion away from them? As long as it doesn't hurt anybody I don't have the right to sway them from enjoying their life. But, as soon as somebody uses their beliefs to support bigotry and make bad decisisions is when I will step in.

End of long post.

[Dane]

It depends how fucked up the so-called religion is and how bright the loud mouths are. When anti-War, peace people see Bush saying he is on God's mission and the like, it isn't a leap of logic to see them attack Christianity and support the religions that represent the ideals they apparently have (like equality, peace etc). I don't know, it just generally isn't Buddhism and Hinduism printing stuff like "In God We Trust" (at least not in Australia) and the Hindu's I know don't want to convert anyone and more or less hate the idea of it. It's probably those types of things that Christianity does that piss people off the most. Christianity causes the most problems for these types of folk than other religions I guess. I'm not saying I agree with them (at all..), just from my experience they are usually kind of dumb and haven't thought things through. I'm not really trying to defend them either that is just how I imagine they see it (which I personally think is flawed. Some of it is a bit petty but I'd probably be annoyed too). Atheists who bag out some religions and ignore others for any PC reason are scum whatever way you slice it.

I have spent 45 minutes writing this post (I have written about 6 paragraphs I've decided to drop). I really am passionate about studying religions (as respectfully as I can) and I am passionate about practising some religious exercises. Maybe Joel and Merrick can relate but this sorta feels like baseball players talking to baseball fans (or something similiar. I don't mean that to be rude in ANY way) and I think I'll bow out of the conversation.

[About2Crash]

I just watched this and agreed with almost all of it. He wasn't as mean as I thought he would be, but he was with the one "ex jew" who seemed helpless. But the end speech was very thought provoking, attacking the moderately religious more than the actual religious. He knows that he can't change the minds of the religious, they pride themselves in believing the fantastic (miracles etc.). But he just attacked the people who call themselves religious yet are oblivious to what they supposedly follow.

[Chameleon]

Great posts Dane.
The hypocrisy of the "freedom fighters" of modern day morality who think their shit doesn't stink is appalling.
In reality people who advocate equality (a level of sameness) for all are the most dangerous because they suppress everyone who doesn't conform to their own PC standards but do this in a manner that's passive-aggressive.
Their chosen 'freedoms and rights' may destroy the things you love and have obvious negative effects but the moment you argue back and point such out they turn pink in the face and call you "nazi", "hater of humanity" or downright illogical.
Funny how it's never the people who morally justify their control with "peace and equality" claims who are the tyrants or aggressors at fault but rather the people who dare step out of that line and point out that difference, inequality and conflict does factor into reality.

I'm not talking solely about people who actually believe in Judeo-Christianity or Judaism (two passive-aggressive religions... although Israel itself is an apartheid-based state where ethnic groups/cultures do not have equal rights) but rather anyone who accepts such moral standards and imposes them on others but at the same time never thinks twice about it.

And I've never even heard of this film, lol.